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but all of the other tax changes would be for next year's taxes, not this year's taxes. so you don't see that immediate impact. and then the stupid across-the-board cuts, congress should revisit that. we could find reductions of $100 billion that aren't across the board where you cut things that are useful and working well as much as things that are losers and go away. >> so under your theory and that of several ores, there's not as you referred to an economic calamity. but you and i both know for example wall street. we keep hearing these business leaders and so many others are nervous and we could see an immediate reaction there if some type of deal is not reached before january 1st. >> sure. the millionaires and billionaires, they've got a sweet deal now. they will make a lot of noise to say, raise my tax rates and i'll stop investing. of course, these are the same people who spent $400 million, $500 million to get a president hired that would cut their taxes. >> it would certainly affect it if the white house is saying you'll go off this cliff. you're looking at them
but all of the other tax changes would be for next year's taxes, not this year's taxes. so you don't see that immediate impact. and then the stupid across-the-board cuts, congress should revisit that. we could find reductions of $100 billion that aren't across the board where you cut things that are useful and working well as much as things that are losers and go away. >> so under your theory and that of several ores, there's not as you referred to an economic calamity. but you and i both...
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the atm tax is going to get a patch. we know we're going to see benefits given to our -- unemployment benefits given and veteran benefits gimp. it seems like this year we have a nice new fun name. i know you hate it steesh, but the fiscal cliff. we put that scary name on it as if that's going to motivate our elected officials. all i see is a press release them saying they're going to fight for us and until the end of the day they're not going to do anything until we see a nice countdown clock. >> as per zblushl but the republicans need that clock more than the democrats do, don't they? >> they do. the fact is we need to find a path way to yes and i think the sooner we do it the better it is politically to move off. >> yeah. no. i mean i was just going to say, republicans -- the problem here for republicans is they're trying to get off this 22-year rae fusal to raise taxes, and think to cut any kind of a deal, they almost -- even if the deal -- the parameters are in place they have to go to the very edge. we held out as l
the atm tax is going to get a patch. we know we're going to see benefits given to our -- unemployment benefits given and veteran benefits gimp. it seems like this year we have a nice new fun name. i know you hate it steesh, but the fiscal cliff. we put that scary name on it as if that's going to motivate our elected officials. all i see is a press release them saying they're going to fight for us and until the end of the day they're not going to do anything until we see a nice countdown clock....
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should taxes go up. the discussion is how do you do it? >> exactly. and, listen, i think that to the extent we are just talking right now, i don't think that talking hurts. but should this become -- should this come in play, little there will be a lot of people on the left who will not be very happy. i think in some ways it is apples and oranges. i think what you're hearing is we will do this, however, you need to do the separate thing over there. i don't think social security has anything to do with it. >> let's talk raw numbers here. at the end of the day you have to find 218 house members. and in the past john boehner has said and, oh, by the way, his election is after the fiscal cliff. that happens a couple days after the fiscal cliff. so all of this maneuvering is complicated. to get to 218 he has said he wants a majority of the majority, which is approximately 120 republicans, so then you have to find some nearly 100 democrats to do this as well, and if that has social security and medicare in it,
should taxes go up. the discussion is how do you do it? >> exactly. and, listen, i think that to the extent we are just talking right now, i don't think that talking hurts. but should this become -- should this come in play, little there will be a lot of people on the left who will not be very happy. i think in some ways it is apples and oranges. i think what you're hearing is we will do this, however, you need to do the separate thing over there. i don't think social security has...
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grover norquist's tax pledge could be history. and all eyes are now focusing on house republicans as talks to avoid going over that so-called fiscal cliff are picking up steam. joining me now, mark halperin, senior political analyst for "time" and msnbc and ruth marcus, columnist and editorial writer for the "washington post." to you, mark, what is your read about what we've been hearing the last couple of days about grover norquist, the pledge and how much running room the speaker does have to b negotiating a deal. >> i did a spit take with my fruity pebbles watching "morning joe" because eric cantor's tone was unlike anything i've ever heard. his office is saying oh, no, he's against raising marginal rates, but it's clear that in the scheme of things, the biggest piece is does john boehner have enough running room to strike a deal involving some new revenue. i still am of the belief that the vote in the house, which will be a cliff hanger no matter what happens amongst the leaders in the white house, it will be a tough vote. i t
grover norquist's tax pledge could be history. and all eyes are now focusing on house republicans as talks to avoid going over that so-called fiscal cliff are picking up steam. joining me now, mark halperin, senior political analyst for "time" and msnbc and ruth marcus, columnist and editorial writer for the "washington post." to you, mark, what is your read about what we've been hearing the last couple of days about grover norquist, the pledge and how much running room the...
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instead of not raising taxes let's just talk about how much we're going to raise taxes, so it appears for the most part now conservatives are looking at changing some of the things they talked about and pledged when they were running for office and look this is a bigger issue to me. it is not necessarily about grover norquist or a pledge and what you run on as you head to congress. some of these speeches and we have all heard them and been to the rallies. they make promises that are virtually impossible to keep and that's the problem with the governance, the mind of not moving the ball forward in the current congress. you can't make promises you can't keep. these types of i will never do this and always do that, that's a bad way to start things off and you're seeing that now because they're having to change the rhetoric. >> i want to play sound from grover norquist. let's play it and i want to talk to you about it on the other side. take a listen. >> no pledge taker has voted for a tax increase. you have had people discussing impure thoughts on national television. we would highlight
instead of not raising taxes let's just talk about how much we're going to raise taxes, so it appears for the most part now conservatives are looking at changing some of the things they talked about and pledged when they were running for office and look this is a bigger issue to me. it is not necessarily about grover norquist or a pledge and what you run on as you head to congress. some of these speeches and we have all heard them and been to the rallies. they make promises that are virtually...
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but at least graham is voting to raise taxes on the wealthy. right? wrong. >> raises tax rates will hurt job creation so i agree with grover we should not raise rates. i will violate for the good of the country only if democrats will do entitlement reform. >> so he won't raise tax rates and entitlements need to be gutted. but that's more like it. let's see some more brave talk from the gop. >> i'm not obligated on the pledge. there's a menu of options on the revenue side and on the entitlement side and as long as there are two parties that are willing to solve this problem, this is a very easy thing to do technically. what it takes is political courage. >> guess what? that political courage doesn't include ding, ding, ding, higher tack rates for the top 2%. but don't pay any attention to that. republicans want us to know that what's really important is that they are rejecting the norquist pledge. >> the lot that has been said about this pledge and i will tell you, when i go to the constituents that re-elected me, it is not about that pledge. it really
but at least graham is voting to raise taxes on the wealthy. right? wrong. >> raises tax rates will hurt job creation so i agree with grover we should not raise rates. i will violate for the good of the country only if democrats will do entitlement reform. >> so he won't raise tax rates and entitlements need to be gutted. but that's more like it. let's see some more brave talk from the gop. >> i'm not obligated on the pledge. there's a menu of options on the revenue side and...
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the use of tax havens to avoid paying taxes in this country is an outrage. we can end it. there's tens of billions of dollars a year involved in closing those kinds of offshore loopholes. >> i'm going to leave it there. senator levin, thank you for being here. hope you had a good holiday. >>> i want to turn to the republican side. peter king of new york. congressman, hope you had a good holiday. good to see you this morning. >> i had a great holiday, especially because notre dame beat southern cal. >> my poor step dad. he is not so happy this morning. >> i don't care about him. >> let me continue on the issue of taxes because this is important. and as i say, it's going to be the defining issue. you hear republican saxby chambliss say it's not going to govern what i do. norquist saying he promised the people of georgia that he would reform the government rather than raise taxes. where do you stand on the pledge? can this be overcome? with revenues be raised? >> first of all, i agree with chambliss. a pledge you signed 20 years ago, 18 years ago, is for that congress. for in
the use of tax havens to avoid paying taxes in this country is an outrage. we can end it. there's tens of billions of dollars a year involved in closing those kinds of offshore loopholes. >> i'm going to leave it there. senator levin, thank you for being here. hope you had a good holiday. >>> i want to turn to the republican side. peter king of new york. congressman, hope you had a good holiday. good to see you this morning. >> i had a great holiday, especially because...
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revenues and raising tax rates. i get it. but do your constituents get it? >> isn't this where i'm supposed to confess my sins to my preacher. >> when you have four people dead, how do you call that hype? >> how many security contractors died in iraq. do you know? >> i don't. >> as u.n. ambassador, she has an obligation not just to be a puppet. >> when i see this focus on what was essentially a small fire fight, it's impossible to figure out what happens on them sometimes. >> she could conceivably get your vote. >> the emphasis has been extremely political probably because fox was operating as a wing of the political party. >> tom ricks, thank you for joining us. >> as far as young women are concerned, i can state my position on abortion. other than that leave the issue alone. >> 20 hail marys, 20 our fathers. ja let's get to our fanl. ana marie cox is a correspondent for "the guardian," and msnbc political analyst karen finney. karen, we just heard senator john mccain a moment ago in "top lines" saying, okay, from
revenues and raising tax rates. i get it. but do your constituents get it? >> isn't this where i'm supposed to confess my sins to my preacher. >> when you have four people dead, how do you call that hype? >> how many security contractors died in iraq. do you know? >> i don't. >> as u.n. ambassador, she has an obligation not just to be a puppet. >> when i see this focus on what was essentially a small fire fight, it's impossible to figure out what happens on...
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gains tax rate. you know what all of it is? all of it is about can they govern? can they govern? can we be governed? can the people in washington, d.c., in the house and the senate and the president, can they govern? >> they have to. >> well, they have to. they absolutely have to. >> just to make a point for those who thought that the health care reform law was historic, many people -- i actually assume that most of the five people at this table think that it's a shocking thing that america is the most powerful country on earth before the health care law was passed, had a massive number of many, many millions of uninsured people in the country when every other industrialized country has universal coverage. >> right. we do all agree with that, right? >> one of the more historic things, it's going to move millions of uninsured people into the ranks of the civilized world. >> and as the president promised, also not only is he going to put 30 million people on the rolls for health care, it's also going t
gains tax rate. you know what all of it is? all of it is about can they govern? can they govern? can we be governed? can the people in washington, d.c., in the house and the senate and the president, can they govern? >> they have to. >> well, they have to. they absolutely have to. >> just to make a point for those who thought that the health care reform law was historic, many people -- i actually assume that most of the five people at this table think that it's a shocking...
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take the alternative minimum tax. if the inflation index isn't advanced for that and i believe republicans and democrats want to do it, 23 million middle class americans will have a 2,000 to 3,000 dollars tax increase on that alone. >> let me interrupt you for a second. i was making this point a little earlier when you start talking about these financial things, you know, the i don't want so say minutia but the more specifics of the negotiations and what the numbers mean and the two different sides will tell you that the numbers are different, it is kind of hard for the average person on who doesn't have an mba to figure out what's going on here. >>> john mccain is suggesting the republican party should focus on bigger issues and leave abortion alone. during an interview yesterday the senator said while he is proud of his pro-life position, there are bigger things to worry about like the economy and national security. police are admitting they missed a potentially key piece of evidence in the casey anthony murder inve
take the alternative minimum tax. if the inflation index isn't advanced for that and i believe republicans and democrats want to do it, 23 million middle class americans will have a 2,000 to 3,000 dollars tax increase on that alone. >> let me interrupt you for a second. i was making this point a little earlier when you start talking about these financial things, you know, the i don't want so say minutia but the more specifics of the negotiations and what the numbers mean and the two...